How to handle off season trading in Keepers?

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AdmiralTrey
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How to handle off season trading in Keepers?

Postby AdmiralTrey » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:55 am

Hey, everyone... I have a question specifically for you Commissioners out there, but would value anyone's opinion on the matter:

This year is the first year in which one of my leagues is a Keeper league. We made this decision as a league during the off season, so people went into last year's draft and played through the whole season without keepers in mind. We're keeping 4 players with no restrictions at all.

I was on the phone with another manager in the league tonight and he was musing over who he was going to keep. He has three players that he really wants to keep, but doesn't really have a good 4th option. He was looking at his cousin's team and noticed that his cousin had 4 pretty obvious keepers, but had a 5th player that wasn't going to be kept that would make a perfect 4th keeper for him. He said "I can just offer him a few players I'm not keeping anyway and get that player from him, it's not like he's actually losing anything."

Is it just me, or is this a bit unfair? During the season I'd say OK, go for it, because the players would actually be on the other manager's team and have the potential to help him, but in this case, he would literally be giving a good player away to another manager for absolutely nothing in return. It seems a bit cheap to me, but I've never really been in a Keeper league for baseball until now, so I'm not sure if this is the norm or not.

How do y'all's leagues normally handle off season transactions? I was thinking that once the off season hit, trades should really be limited to Keepers and that every other player should be considered to be in the draft pool as free agents. Is this usually how leagues do it?

10 Team 6X6 H2H Dynasty Year 5
C - Wilson Ramos
1B - Freddie Freeman
2B - Gleyber Torres
3B - Nolan Arenado
SS - Trea Turner
OF - Mike Trout
OF - Ronald Acuna
OF - Yordan Alvarez
OF - Kris Bryant
UTL - Javier Baez
UTL - Adalberto Mondesi
Bench - Rhys Hoskins, Miguel Sano, Byron Buxton, Jonathan Schoop, Rowdy Tellez

SP - Gerrit Cole, Stephen Strasburg, Blake Snell, Chris Sale, Jose Berrios, Chris Paddack, Mike Soroka, German Marquez
RP - Ken Giles, Dellin Betances, Taylor Rogers, Geovanny Gallegos, Colin Poche, Corey Knebel
Pedo NA Purgatory Felipse Vazquez

Prospects:
SP: Grayson Rodriguez, Josiah Gray, Seth Corry, Franklin Perez, Ryan Weathers, Blake Walston
RP: James Karinchak
OF: Luis Robert, Alek Thomas, Jesus Sanchez, Kameron Misner, Bayron Lora
IF: Vidal Brujan, Alexander Mojica, Malcolm Nunez, Greg Jones, Gunnar Henderson
C: Sam Huff, Luis Campusano, William Contreras

Results:
2019 - 4th place. Finished regular season 20 games ahead of 2nd place but fell apart in the playoffs.
2018 - 1st place. Finished regular season 24 games ahead of 2nd place and won in the playoffs.
2017 - 2nd place. Finished regular season 5 games ahead of 2nd place but lost in the playoffs.
2016 - 1st place. Finished regular season 1.5 games behind 1st but won in the playoffs

logan81901
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Re: How to handle off season trading in Keepers?

Postby logan81901 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:54 am

I have been in a keeper league for about 6 years now and this type of stuff happens alot. When we started our keeper league, we only had a MLB roster. Trades like this would happen a whole lot and people would get upset. So what we decided to do is make up a MiLB roster (prospect) roster of 8 people. These players dont cound against your 4 keepers, but are able to be brought up to your MLB roster when they lose prospect status. When doing this you can place them in the lowest available rounds on your team. By doing this, we had a lot of people that would trade good keepers away (that they couldnt keep) for a prospect player. That way you are still "getting" something out of it instead of a bunch of MLB players that are just going to be thrown back into the draft pool.

That being said, there are still trades that happen that are totally one-sided. For example, I had Matt Holliday and J. Verlander both in the second round. Im keeping Verlander, and was going to throw Holliday back in. I just got an offer for Jonathon Singelton for him so i took it. I got a good prospect for a guy i couldnt even keep. When it comes down to it, you are going to have chances to get people for nothing and others will at others times... just how keeper leagues work. I would definately recommend adding a seperate prospect draft so that you can try to push back against this situation.
16 team roto keeper league
R, HR, RBI, SB, AVG, OBP, W, K, S, HLD, ERA, WHIP
16 players must be kept each year
Keep as long as you want
1500 inning limit
162 games per position

C- Wilson Ramos
1st- Freddie Freeman
2nd- Gyorko
3rd- Miggy
SS- E Cabrera
INF- Chris Davis
LF- Brett Gardner
CF- Andrew McCutchen
RF-
OF-
UT-A Beltre

SP- Matt Cain
SP- Madison Bumgarner
SP- Julio Teheran
RP- Grant Balfour
RP- Sergio Romo
RP-
P- Shelby Miller
P-
P-
BN- Miguel Sano
BN-
BN-
BN-
BN-
BN-

wynams
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Re: How to handle off season trading in Keepers?

Postby wynams » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:52 am

My opinions:
I have various keeper leagues that have tried a number of methods. As a commissioner, your goal should be a low amount of bookkeeping (unless you are retired/single/bored). The only thing that I have found to work for me is to just not allow offseason trading of any kind.

I found that trying to track people down from NOV-FEB to review a trade or even to reply to an offer to return far too little in return for what was gained.

The only way I could see entertaining the idea of trying it again would be if Yahoo, CBS or ESPN were to add such a feature where it would all be handled on the league website.

Of all the things people have requested me to change, this ranks pretty low.
12 Team Mixed, H2H Points, Keeper - 2x[DL]
C- JMontero
1B- Votto
2B- Rutledge
3B- Frazier
SS- Lowrie
CI- Encarnacion
MI- Segura
OF- Choo
OF- JUpton
OF- Bourn
OF- Rasmus
OF- Moss
U- Kinsler

SPs: Darvish, Price, Lester, Bailey, Niese, Cahill, Lincecum, Teheran, Nova
RPs: Rodney, Parnell, Perkins, Mujica

Lucc
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Re: How to handle off season trading in Keepers?

Postby Lucc » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:45 am

Trades are like any business, you develop partners. Ive made deals in the offseason with little return that i was rewarded for down the road by simply reminding an owner how I helped him out. Granted a swap in draft picks makes more sense, if an owner is weak enough to make a deal that he doesn't benefit from, really nothing you can do, outside striking first. You have Knowledge, use it to drive up the price.
13 Tm Mixed 11 Major 3 Minor Keeper "Midnight Crazies" (Est. 2003, 2014 Champion, 2015 runner up)
Batters
C
1B Abreu, Jose (Keeper) (trade jones, Lester, Joe Ross & Brantley)
2B Altuve, Jose (Keeper)
3B Frazier, Todd (Keeper)
SS Bogaerts, Xander (Keeper)
MI
CI Donaldson, Josh (Keeper)
OF McCutchen, Andrew (Keeper)
OF Cespedes, Yoenis (keeper) (trade puig)
OF Grichuk, Randal (Keeper)
OF
OF
DH
DH

Pitchers
P Bumgarner, Madison (keeper)
P Archer, Chris (Keeper)
P Rodon, Carlos (Keeper)
P
P
P
P
P
P
p

Minor - David Dahl
Minor - Max Kepler
Minor - Sean Manaea

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Bourne
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Re: How to handle off season trading in Keepers?

Postby Bourne » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:03 am

Once you are out of the season, (lose or do not make the playoffs) your team is locked from adds, drops, and trades. After you declare your keepers, then you can reopen. You can still trade following year picks during the season, and once your keepers are designated you can still make trades before the draft.
RCL Cracking the Whip: (5x5 ESPN roto)
C: Weiters
1B,3B,CI: Encarnacion, Wright, Alanso
2B,SS,MI: Getz, Kozma, Uggla
5xOF: Kemp, Holliday, Hunter, Soriano, Crisp
1xUtil: Markakis
Bn: Hill, Aybar
DL: Hart
SP: MadBum, Zimmermann, Morrow, Annibal Sanchez, Lynn, Anderson
RP: League, Parnell, Benoit, Hernandez

12 team F&F: (6x6 Yahoo! H2H with OPS and Losses)
C: Cervelli
1B,3B,CI: Gold, Zimmerman, Frazier
2B,SS,MI: Phillips, Ruthledge, Bonifacio
4xOF: Braun, Hamilton, Cruz, Hunter
2xUtil: Chris Davis, Span
SP: Latos, Moore, Zimmermann, Niese, Milone, Griffin, Miller, Cingrani, ~Streamer~
RP: Holland, Janssen, Perkins, Bailey, Valverde
2xNA: Straily, Grandal

MStark
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Re: How to handle off season trading in Keepers?

Postby MStark » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:49 am

I don't understand the premise.

Regarding the team with 4 "obvious" keepers and a 5th player that is the object of the trade... why would he do the deal? He literally get's nothing out of it, but strengthens a competitor.

The problem we have in my keeper league is that it is an auction league and we've made a rule that we cannot collude to trade after the auction takes place to reserve salary cap. So I've got Granderson signed from last year at $17. I've got a league-mate that says he'd give me Prince Fielder for him, but Fielder is signed at $28, so I'd have $11 less going into the draft. That's a deal I'd take after the auction, but not now. But I can't say as much, because that would be "colluding".
ESPN 12 team, All MLB Auction $260 budget
Draft 3/18/14

C: Brian McCann (kept 1 yr @ $5)
IB: Eric Hosmer (through 2016, $17)
2B: Anthony Rendon ($5)
3B: Manny Machado (through 2016, $14)
SS: Ian Desmond (kept 1 yr @ $8)
MI: Jean Segura (through 2017, $10)
CI: Edwin Encarcion (kept 1 yr @ $27)
OF: Bryce Harper (through 2015, $14)
OF: Nick Castellanos ($7)
OF: Ben Revere ($5)
OF: Curtis Granderson, ($8)
OF: Brett Gardner ($4)
Util: Billy Butler ($13)
P: Stephen Strasburg (kept 1 yr @ $14)
P: Michael Pineda ($4)
P: Danny Salazar (through 2017, $14)
P: Aroldis Chapman (kept 1 yr @ $21)
P: Zack Wheeler (through 2017, $14)
P: Grant Balfour ($13)
P: Nate Jones ($10)
P: Yordono Ventura ($8)
P: Sonny Gray ($14)
B: Miguel Montero ($4)
B: Gregory Polanco ($3)
B: Denard Span ($1)

Bman1970
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Re: How to handle off season trading in Keepers?

Postby Bman1970 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:16 am

Unless the person trading that 5th keeper is getting something legit for his keeper list, he would be silly to make that trade. At worst, you throw back a player that will use up $ on somebody else's cap.

As an example, my league is allowed to carry over 3 keepers and 2 Minors slots. My list is Kemp $28, Kershaw $22, Strasburg $6 plus Lawrie Minors and Trout Minors. (Very liberal Minors rules last year that are changing for this year). I also have rights to a $40 Cabrera and $37 Fielder both of whom would make some teams as a 3rd keeper. But unless somebody comes along to plus one of those 5 slots, I'd be foolish to hand over Cabrera when he'll likely get to $50 in the draft room and seriously dent somebody's budget. However, if the team with Matt Moore in his Minors slot offered me just Moore for my Trout plus Cabrera, I'd do it.

Also, keeper leagues are all zero-sum in terms of amount of guys kept, so somebody acquired in trade means another guy dumped back into the pool.

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Re: How to handle off season trading in Keepers?

Postby Oregon Nut Cups » Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:20 am

How do y'all's leagues normally handle off season transactions? I was thinking that once the off season hit, trades should really be limited to Keepers and that every other player should be considered to be in the draft pool as free agents. Is this usually how leagues do it?
If both parties cannot benefit from the trade, then the trade should not be allowed. Yahoo allows draft pick trades, which has opened up some trading opportunities for our league but we'd never allow this in the off-season. Trading a player just because you're not keeping them for players that you're not keeping makes no sense. In our league, this trade would be nullified.

We allow trades all year. We do allow playoff trades but it wasn't used much until this last year with the introduction of draft pick trades. Even then, I wouldn't say they've had a huge impact on our teams when it comes to the playoffs. The team that won last year DID sell alot of draftpicks for playoff moves, but now he has to rebuild this year with less worthwhile picks. We'll see how it affects him. The crazy thing is he now has too many keepable players but I don't see what he's going to get back from the glut since most teams are pretty set with keepers. The ability to keep anywhere from 2 to 8 players really forces owners to believe in a player rather than just keeping to match the league's needs.
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Re: How to handle off season trading in Keepers?

Postby AdmiralTrey » Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:41 am

Thanks for all the replies, guys. My plan was to disallow off season trading until after the Keeper deadline every year, but since we didn't draft or end last season with a Keeper policy in place and a couple of managers mentioned wishing to look at potential trades, I thought it would be OK to say "If y'all need to make trades to finalize your Keepers just for this first season, it's cool". I wasn't expecting people to go crazy with it and wanting to work together on things. Like Wynams said, it's extra work to keep track of it, especially in cases where teams are just giving players away.
And the two managers in question are cousins, so they wouldn't necessarily be opposed to helping each other out even if it doesn't benefit both teams, as long as it doesn't hurt either team. Pretty much everyone in this league knows everyone else, so there have been instances of collusion in the past. Because we all know each other, that can get people pissed at each other IRL, so I really want to cut all opportunities to collude.

I'm a small-government kinda guy, so I don't like having too many rules or regulations, but I think people will have to live with the following temporary rule for this season: "In any trade which takes place prior to the 2012 season's Keeper deadline, both teams involved with the deal are required to keep a player in the deal.". In the future, off season trading isn't going to be allowed, but is that a fair compromise for this year? It would almost force anyone who wanted to make a deal into making a 1 for 1 or 2 for 2 type deal and would cut out the ability to give a Keeper quality player to another team for a bunch of nobodies.

10 Team 6X6 H2H Dynasty Year 5
C - Wilson Ramos
1B - Freddie Freeman
2B - Gleyber Torres
3B - Nolan Arenado
SS - Trea Turner
OF - Mike Trout
OF - Ronald Acuna
OF - Yordan Alvarez
OF - Kris Bryant
UTL - Javier Baez
UTL - Adalberto Mondesi
Bench - Rhys Hoskins, Miguel Sano, Byron Buxton, Jonathan Schoop, Rowdy Tellez

SP - Gerrit Cole, Stephen Strasburg, Blake Snell, Chris Sale, Jose Berrios, Chris Paddack, Mike Soroka, German Marquez
RP - Ken Giles, Dellin Betances, Taylor Rogers, Geovanny Gallegos, Colin Poche, Corey Knebel
Pedo NA Purgatory Felipse Vazquez

Prospects:
SP: Grayson Rodriguez, Josiah Gray, Seth Corry, Franklin Perez, Ryan Weathers, Blake Walston
RP: James Karinchak
OF: Luis Robert, Alek Thomas, Jesus Sanchez, Kameron Misner, Bayron Lora
IF: Vidal Brujan, Alexander Mojica, Malcolm Nunez, Greg Jones, Gunnar Henderson
C: Sam Huff, Luis Campusano, William Contreras

Results:
2019 - 4th place. Finished regular season 20 games ahead of 2nd place but fell apart in the playoffs.
2018 - 1st place. Finished regular season 24 games ahead of 2nd place and won in the playoffs.
2017 - 2nd place. Finished regular season 5 games ahead of 2nd place but lost in the playoffs.
2016 - 1st place. Finished regular season 1.5 games behind 1st but won in the playoffs

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Oregon Nut Cups
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Re: How to handle off season trading in Keepers?

Postby Oregon Nut Cups » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:04 pm

I'm a small-government kinda guy, so I don't like having too many rules or regulations, but I think people will have to live with the following temporary rule for this season: "In any trade which takes place prior to the 2012 season's Keeper deadline, both teams involved with the deal are required to keep a player in the deal.". In the future, off season trading isn't going to be allowed, but is that a fair compromise for this year? It would almost force anyone who wanted to make a deal into making a 1 for 1 or 2 for 2 type deal and would cut out the ability to give a Keeper quality player to another team for a bunch of nobodies.
I think all season trading is great, but that's just me. There've only been a couple of times where the commish - who is a bit more big-government than I'd like - has gotten involved, but the overall result is that we don't even think about trades such as what you're describing. Everyone must get something of value from the trades or else the trade is disallowed. Picks for players is fine, and keeper for keeper is fine.

The important question to ask is 'if I allow this trade, what does it do to the integrity of the league?'. Things are supposed to be fun, but moves like you're describing are fun for 2 people and anger-inducing for 10 others.

To me, there's really no question here. Even if collusion weren't involved, the integrity of what a keeper league is about is destroyed in a trade such as this. Given its the first year being a keeper, I think the discretion of allowing off-season trading once is fine in this case with the caveat being you're trading keepers for keepers or keepers for draft picks.
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If you want me to look at your team, post the team. Don't post a link to another site where the team is.
Have you given me all the info I need to judge your team? The number of teams in the league is a good start for the big overall questions.
I don't know who's on your waivers. Don't just ask me who you should pick up. Give me names to choose from.
If you only have one team, post your team in your signature with the league parameters.


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